Being a Pagan Resource for Teen Seekers
Sep. 2nd, 2004 06:28 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sunflowerpMany Pagans began their spiritual quests in their teens - yet the standard community attitude about teen seekers has for years been, "Too risky, let's not go there at all - besides, they're probably too young to be serious about it." Some of those who voice this attitude are those who came to Paganism later, and as teens were uninterested in spiritual matters; they measure teens by the standard of themselves as teens. Some figure, "I had to fumble through it with no guidance, so why shouldn't they?" Many envision hostility and lawsuits as the inevitable result of any interaction with teens. The supposition is that the kids can wait until they're old enough.
Trouble is, that's not how it works. The process of establishing individual identity, keynote of adolescent development, cannot be put on hold - and that includes the establishing of individual spiritual identity in youngens that are so inclined. The kids will keep seeking, they'll keep reading whatever material they have access to that relates to their path, and if they can't find good resources they'll settle for bad ones - they can't be stopped, any more than they can be stopped from growing up (which in fact is exactly what they are doing with their seeking).
So the bottom line is that we MUST "go there". If those of us who are ethical and reliable won't stick our necks out, the unreliable and unethical certainly will. Instead of envisioning worst-case scenarios of conflict with hostile parents and backing off altogether, we need to consider all the scenarios, not just the worst case; we need to consider what the actual risks are, in what situations, and what can be done to minimize them. Those of us who have already been acting as resources for younger seekers will have much to share about what works and what doesn't.
The common ground of this discussion is that we all believe that the whole Pagan community must serve as a resource for the young Pagans and seekers. We may disagree about many other things. Those other things may influence what we think should be done, and how. Debate, including heated debate, is encouraged - but keep in mind that we ultimately have a common goal; if we're preoccupied with "winning" an argument, it's not our debate opponent who ultimately loses, but Paganism's next generation.
Seems to me that's all the "ground rules" needed (very similar ones worked just fine when I was moderating discussion bases on the old dial-up BBSes - I like things loose). Feel free to ask questions if you have 'em.
Oh, and the name of my LiveJournal space? Pure coincidence, I assure you; when I was setting up a few weeks back, I picked it without much thought (beyond, "I can always change it later") from one of my favorite buttons.
Let the discussion begin!
Sunflower
Trouble is, that's not how it works. The process of establishing individual identity, keynote of adolescent development, cannot be put on hold - and that includes the establishing of individual spiritual identity in youngens that are so inclined. The kids will keep seeking, they'll keep reading whatever material they have access to that relates to their path, and if they can't find good resources they'll settle for bad ones - they can't be stopped, any more than they can be stopped from growing up (which in fact is exactly what they are doing with their seeking).
So the bottom line is that we MUST "go there". If those of us who are ethical and reliable won't stick our necks out, the unreliable and unethical certainly will. Instead of envisioning worst-case scenarios of conflict with hostile parents and backing off altogether, we need to consider all the scenarios, not just the worst case; we need to consider what the actual risks are, in what situations, and what can be done to minimize them. Those of us who have already been acting as resources for younger seekers will have much to share about what works and what doesn't.
The common ground of this discussion is that we all believe that the whole Pagan community must serve as a resource for the young Pagans and seekers. We may disagree about many other things. Those other things may influence what we think should be done, and how. Debate, including heated debate, is encouraged - but keep in mind that we ultimately have a common goal; if we're preoccupied with "winning" an argument, it's not our debate opponent who ultimately loses, but Paganism's next generation.
Seems to me that's all the "ground rules" needed (very similar ones worked just fine when I was moderating discussion bases on the old dial-up BBSes - I like things loose). Feel free to ask questions if you have 'em.
Oh, and the name of my LiveJournal space? Pure coincidence, I assure you; when I was setting up a few weeks back, I picked it without much thought (beyond, "I can always change it later") from one of my favorite buttons.
Let the discussion begin!
Sunflower
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
What kind of seekers?
Date: 2004-09-02 10:57 am (UTC)Now, to my main point lol...two of my close friends are 17 and 19, met the 17 year old on Witchvox, the 19 year old through other friends my age (late 20s.) i've known them for over a year and about three years, respectively, both are long distance so the communication mainly takes place online. When i met them both they were, and still very much are, rabidly Pagan lmao, so i've given plenty of Paganism-related advice as well as general life advice. They were (are) both seekers in the sense of not having all the answers (who does?), but, like i said, as Pagan as they come...made my job as an unofficial mentor really easy lol.
As far as "I'm just considering paganism along with a list of other possibilities" kind of seekers, it seems to me that plenty of accurate and balanced resources are already out there, if people choose to avail themselves of those resources, great...attempting to mentor a student not ready to be mentored, on the other hand, seems too close to proselytizing for comfort, not too mention usually a waste of time.
Looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts and comments~~Maria.
Teen Seeker Outreach
Date: 2004-09-02 12:27 pm (UTC)I agree that we have to do something-- both for those who are already solidly Pagan AND for those considering Paganism along with everything else. Those ones especially both deserve and need some very solid guidance. They're the ones most at risk.
If we don't reach out, the Fundamentalists and the creeps will. I know both of these types of people-- THEY ADVERTISE. Fundamentalists advertise openly, creeps do their advertising under the table by word of mouth-- trust me I've met some. They tend to start off with sympathy and interest-- to quote Avon, "Let's talk." Exactly the kind of attitude a teenager-- or anyone else, for that matter-- with questions is looking for.
So (in my very inexpert opinion) that's the attitude we need to have about it too-- "Let's talk." We don't need to be out there to convince them of why they should choose Paganism as their path-- it's their necessary right to make that decision on their own. Fundamentalists and other proselytizers convince. Answering questions in a mature and as-objective-as-possible fashion is NOT proselytizing.
That's what my friends did for me when I was 24-going-on-16 and wrestling with questions, creeps, and Fundamentalists. And it worked. I turned out as Pagan as Samhain... but the important thing is that I made my own informed choice with the help of people who listened to me and answered my questions. Well, that and I didn't end up involved in an abusive cult ;-)
I agree that there are plenty of resources in the "New Age/Occult" section of the local book store and also on the Net. In my own relatively fresh experience, those resources while wonderful and complete are not adequate. Books and Web sites are not the same as having someone to talk to, and they're not an acceptable substitute. They're not interactive and there's no way they can address a lot of the feelings and emotions involved in being a seeker-- especially one with the issues that seem so common to teenagers.
If I'd had to depend entirely on the books, I'd probably still have no spirituality at all at this point. I'd certainly still be wandering lost and alone in the woods-- and not in a postive, look-at-the-pretty-trees kind of way. Or worse, I'd be living in a world of poop and pain, because the creeps would have been there in flesh and blood when I realized the books just weren't cutting it.
We might want to talk to Wren and Fritz and the other people who run WitchVox-- if we could set up some kind of mentoring center for those who want it on the Teen Pages, that would be a low-risk high-availability option.
There are all kinds of risks we have to be aware of-- from Fundamentalists willing to firebomb us to keep us from "stealing the souls of the children" to angry parents taking legal action to even psycho behavior from the very kids we're trying to protect. Nothing like an angry teenager howling "sexual abuse" to ruin your day.
No I don't think all or even most of the kids would do something like that, but I've known people who would. I knew a girl once who beat her kids, blamed her boyfriend, and tried to take out a restraining order on me because I called her on it. She ended up losing her kids, thank Goddess, but the point of this story is that the psycho is out there, and we have to guard against it.
I just don't think that the innocent and earnest majority should suffer because we're too busy fearing the psychos.
I'm bookmarking this place. Let's talk more about it. Something has to be done, and if we don't do it, negative-faith types will. They're out there waiting for the chance.
Be blessed.
--Ani
Re: Teen Seeker Outreach
Date: 2004-09-02 05:32 pm (UTC)Sure, there are plenty of attention seekers, just go into any Pagan chatroom lol. Another lady and myself once got the thrill of explaining to a thirteen year old, who supposedly swallowed a bottle of aspirin because she was upset over a fight with her mother, why suicide was not the answer. Again, supposedly, she made herself throw up, talked to her mother, and all was well...no way of knowing if it was real, if it was somebody merely contemplating suicide and acting out the scenario, or just somebody's rather morbid entertainment. No pre-existing relationship = no follow up, and not for the lack of trying on our part.
Another one...that was after the Witchvox restriction upon adults contacting minors, btw ^I^, so I had to get creative lol...a teenager posted an obvious "cry for attention" poem describing self-mutilation, we communicated online briefly... She acknowledged that self-cutting does not accomplish anything, but "you do what you gotta do"... asked to explain what Paganism was all about, I suggested books and websites, she was like "too complicated," I condensed it to a paragraph lol, that too apparently was too complicated, haven't really heard from her again. It wasn't an issue of intelligence, the poem was quite good and her e-mails quite literate, just an issue of "this is not me at this point in time."
Point of the stories lol--a live Q @ A at Witchvox might work, but i doubt it'll get a lot of serious inquiries. In my experience however, when it comes to mentoring, a pre-existing one-on-one relationship with a lot of time and emotional energy invested by both parties seems to be the only way to fly. (Insert mandatory nod to Gardener lol.)~~Maria
Re: Teen Seeker Outreach
Date: 2004-09-02 08:11 pm (UTC)Through the help and the understanding they gave me, we became close over time.
A Q&A area on WitchVox is just one idea-- I don't claim to have all the answers. I do believe that we'd get a lot of attention seekers and assorted other crap, and I further believe that a lot of people do need to and will choose to find their own way.
But-- I was lucky. When I had a need, She provided someone to help me sort it out. I can't help but think that, in this discussion, She might be asking all of us to give a service by holding out a hand to others in need.
Books really can be too complicated-- or too something, or not enough something. I'm lucky enough to have a little disposable income-- I spent about $200 on used books before I accepted the fact that, as a somewhat nontraditional Pagan, I wasn't going to get much help there.
A lot of my questions dealt with scary things that no one wanted to write (or publish) a book to talk about. If it hadn't been for the concern of a virtual stranger, I would have been up the creek without a paddle.
Be blessed.
Re: Teen Seeker Outreach
Date: 2004-09-03 09:52 pm (UTC)In the end, I ended up finding the Internet a more valuable resource for starting conversations with my friends than anything I was able to read in books.
Makes me wonder if it might not be a good idea to compile a list of websites we've found helpful. We would of course have to come to some kind of agreement about what kinds of sites would be acceptable. From the point of view of a very eclectic Solitary I would argue that we not plan to stick solidly in the main-mainstream but also work at staying away from the outer edges of the lunatic fringe.
The far-out fringe elements aren't that hard to identify... they're usually the ones carrying on about how to basically achieve miracles with a candle, some herbs, and their simple one-of-a-kind formula (TM).
But... again, potentially worth consideration. Like I said, my main caveat is that, since the non-mainstreamers are often likely to be the ones most at risk, I think we might serve them well to venture just a little bit out of the feel-good party line.
Please don't take offense to that-- I mean none. If it helps take the edge off of me, all you Potter fans out there think of Mad-Eye Moody... "Constant vigilance!"
Be blessed.
--Ani
Do they want help?
Date: 2004-09-02 03:49 pm (UTC)our offer is at
http://www.usfamily.net/web/triskellion1/under18.htm
BB Ken Ra BTW i am in no way pagan ....being a Wiccan Priest to the core.
Re: Do they want help?
Date: 2004-09-02 09:21 pm (UTC)In response to what I saw as a sore lack of teen friendly adult teachers, I reached out via Witchvox to local teens in my area. I offered classes and guidance to kids 15 and older as long as I got parental permission (via permission slip and a conversation with the parient who signed it - to ensure their sig wasn't forged). I explained that these procautions were about serious legal issues and were in no way an indication that I didn't trust the students who were interested.
I tried several things with them and offered a number of different options. I offered workshops (for free even), direct learning one-on-one and just being on-call for questions. I even got involved in helping one student work towards getting Independant Study credit for work done with me. In the end, the follow-through on the part of the kids wasn't there. At the very most, I because an occational source of information via email or phone - and most of the questions were less magick/craft related and more about the confusion of teen-age years.
I was happy to help, but for the most part, there was very little interest in really learning anything (especially anything that took attention, dedication and focus) and much more of an interest in doing EXTRAORDINARY AMAZING stuff that made them feel special. There is no judgement here - being a teenager is very very difficult and it is an understatement to say that most teenagers do weird things to make themselves feel special, cool and popular. The students I worked with were no exception. I and not saying that they didn't have real and abiding interest in craft, just that those feelings and desires might produce more solid results in the future when they are ready to really settle down and do some learning.
I had one student in particular who was obsessed with a yahoo group where they talked about how they were dragons. His identification with this (something I don't deny him or define as absolutely impossible to say the least) was more about the social structure within the group (which users were part of the more powerful dragon families than others) than it was about connecting with any animal energy, imaginary or otherwise. This wasn't conscious empowerment at all - it was mostly D&D style role playing in the guise of spirituality. Sadly, any positive benefits coming from this - empowerment, connection with dragon style chaotic energy, learning about expanding a vision of the world around him - were lost in the day to day drama of these social circles. In the end, my regularly asked opinions often ended in, "...and remember, take some time to look at what your beliefs and energy are going into and consider if they are really helping you have a happier more successful life. If they are simply making things more difficult, than maybe it's time to shift some of your thinking".
In the end, I think this outreach was more beneficial for me than it was for the young pagans. I got a chance to remember what it was like when I first found craft. I was just the same too, seeing fantastical things in the place of the mundane and creating a feel of being "special" - something I really needed at the time. I remember some of the adults that were there to answer my questions (not that I really listened either). They didn't help me really with information but allowed me to feel like I was coming into a community of people - something else I really needed. Maybe being there is the most important thing of all.
Re: Do they want help?
Date: 2004-09-03 08:59 pm (UTC)"...there was very little interest in really learning anything (especially anything that took attention, dedication and focus) and much more of an interest in doing EXTRAORDINARY AMAZING stuff that made them feel special..."
Yeah, I remember that phase too. I was older so it was mercifully short and more about proving myself than about feeling special... so call me lucky. Or maybe those things are actually twins... Got a suspicion that's the real case. Wince-blush-wince again.
I don't think it's a sign of not wanting help but instead a lesson that every seeker with any appreciable thaumaturgical bent has to learn.
"...In the end, my regularly asked opinions often ended in, "...and remember, take some time to look at what your beliefs and energy are going into and consider if they are really helping you have a happier more successful life. If they are simply making things more difficult, than maybe it's time to shift some of your thinking".
In the end, I think this outreach was more beneficial for me than it was for the young pagans..."
Don't be so sure. That exact advice probably did more than one kid more good than you'll ever know. I remember my greatest high school teacher (personal and academic, though not expressly spiritual) practically tearing up when I told him how much good he'd done me... I got the impression that real and valuable teaching is often a high-fatigue, low-reward thankless freakin' job.
That exact advice probably helped set at least a few people on the road to a more realistic and positive spirituality... it's exactly what I'm talking about trying to get more of out there. Because every one counts.
Yeah, being there really is the most important thing of all. Maybe I had so much trouble finding it when I was in need because I wasn't a teenager and wasn't willing to pose as one... but you're right. Being there is the most important thing.
It's fatiguing and not the most fantastically gratifying thing on earth... there's that darn reality-check lesson again, oww I hate reviewing that one... but, well, there it is.
It's why we've got to put our heads together and help each other to keep something going. Just being there.
Be blessed.
--Ani
(no subject)
Date: 2004-09-02 09:36 pm (UTC)We have to offer more.
When I was first learning about Paganism, I found books in my library. They were the wrong books. I didn't have access to the internet at that time, either. Furthermore, some teens don't have access to libraries or bookstores which *even have* occult, new age, metaphysical, or pagan sections. You will not find those books in small towns.
We do need to stop coming up with excuses for ourselves. If our efforts to reach out have met no success, it cannot be blamed entirely on an apathetic youth. We must try harder, and try new approaches.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-09-03 09:25 pm (UTC)"I think teens who are interested in Paganism *do* want to learn, and very much so. But they will almost never come to you and ask specific questions unless they're real go-getters who love collecting and studying information... When you know nothing about Paganism, you also don't know what questions to ask. Therefore, an offer to answer questions gets no responses. You're asking them to begin, but beginning is what they're having trouble with."
There's a lot of truth in this. I remember when I began my studies feeling exactly this way and being very, very frustrated and upset by it.
The only question I knew how to ask was "Oh, no, I think I really got myself in trouble this time. What do I do now??"
To be fair I later found out that my inability to formulate questions was AT LEAST as frustrating for my informal teacher as it was for me... He felt a lot of guilt and a lot of worry that I was just someone else out to, you know, do amazing things with relatively little effort.
Sadly, yeah, these too are out there... but I don't believe they're as common as burned-out teachers assume.
NOW FOR THE BIG PROBLEM...
I'm not sure what to do about it either... my friends and I have talked a little about it as relevant to my progress in my own education. So far the conclusion we seem to be circling is that it was a phase I had to go through, maybe a test of dedication of sorts... I've been the main one proposing that view but fact is I know that it may be true or may not.
When I went through it I thought it meant I was just stupid or that I had a crummy teacher. I realize now that neither of those things were the case but instead it's a common situation.
WE NEED TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS. How we've approached it in the past, both from a student's and a teacher's point of view. What has succeeded and failed.
Wouldn't hurt to go ahead and take the risk of blue-skying some new ideas, either. I'm beginning to think that realistic plans evolve out of unrealistic ideas that get kicked around a bit.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I think I'm going to bring it up to my friends at breakfast tomorrow and see what they have to say. They're not outreach types either, preferring to wait until work comes to them. But they're actually pretty smart so I think I'll bring some work to the table and post results.
Be blessed.
--Ani
littleani7@hotmail.com
While I'm no expert....
Date: 2004-09-02 10:07 pm (UTC)My problem isn't so much as being a mentor figure ( There was a girl where I used to work who was becoming more Pagan/Wicca orientated. And to the Wiccan priest? Without Paganism as a whole, there'd be nothing to really be a priest of. )
But yes, I was uneasy at first... but she found if she had questions to direct me.. I could tell her anything. my problem is,...there's so much to cover...that I need to know what direction the listener wants me to go in. Sabbats? Elements, and the things that relate to them? Pantheons? Anyhow.. you all follow, I'm sure. Point me in a direction and I'll move full steam ahead. But if i don't know what they want to know, I could be wasintg their, and my, time.
Just my nickel... can I have my three pennies back now? I'm out. *grin*
RavenUprising ( or That wouldbe_me)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-09-03 01:25 am (UTC)But I'm wondering if it's simply that my expectations are different, or something. For one thing, I don't really expect a teenager to start out interested and end up on a year-and-a-day initiation and study track. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. But I pretty much expect that a young person is going to be exploring and learning what they lean towards while they're discovering themselves, and so I usually expect that while the interest is there early, the readiness to commit won't quite be there.
So what can I do? Talk, recommend books, answer questions, and wait. Understand that while they're looking at Wicca they're probably looking at other things. Understand that while I'm not willing to provide certain bits of information until I see a stronger interest, I'm not going to close the door because they're not on a dedicated track, either.
I'm going to realize that the questions they ask are the issues they're ready to examine - which is different from saying that the questions they ask are the answers they're ready for.
and like adults, each seeker ideally should be treated individually based on where they're at and how their interest lies. That being said, I'm not an active outreach person for teen pagans. I generally stay pretty private and I can be pretty hard to talk to. I'm not here to chase seekers around or shepherd people - but if they ask, or want to talk, I can do that, a bit.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-09-03 09:42 pm (UTC)We shouldn't be out to see every kid we try to counsel end up working toward initiation or whatever you wanna call it... or even to see every one end up Pagan.
We're calling them seekers for a reason... and even if it may not look serious from the other side of the experience to a lot of those 'dabbling kids' it's quite serious. I know it was for me, well before anyone else could see how serious I was.
But, yeah... we don't need to be here to initiate them. We need to be here to help them seek. Some will end up mainstream Pagan, some (me! me! me!) will end up as Solitaries... and some will end up deciding that they really belong on some other path entirely. But at least they'll come to that conclusion on the basis of information rather than frustration and fear.
Does anyone think it might be possible to set up a site with something like discussion questions where people could post thoughts and responses?? Part of me, looking back, thinks that's something that might have appealed to me when I was so very very new to all of this.
It would at least provide a jumping-off point for those who don't know enough to even know where to start.
Obviously this is sketchy as all get out, and maybe unrealistic... I don't know. I think it might be worth at least talking a little more about. My teacher has pretty crummy timing... he tends to bring things up right when I've already got all my mental switchboard can handle... but one thing he tried when he could see I was getting frustrated enough to quit (with some success, may I add) was throwing out basically a short 'topic of the day' lesson to see which ones I responded to with interest.
We did at least find out this way that I did OK with mythology and liked spellcraft, ethics, and magickal theory... and had no gift for and ultimately little interest in divination.
I do know that the approach I'm responding to here ended up being the one that worked for my teacher... though it seems terribly slow and frustrating for all involved, and the more results-oriented either party in the teaching exchange is, the more frustrating it will be.
I was lucky to be one of those people who enjoy conversation for its own sake and to have a teacher who feels pretty much the same way. Guess us old windbags are good for something after all.
Let's talk.
Be blessed.
--Ani
littleani7@hotmail.com
You guys keep saying...
Date: 2004-09-03 06:55 pm (UTC)Re: You guys keep saying...
Date: 2004-09-03 07:19 pm (UTC)Re: You guys keep saying...
Date: 2004-09-03 09:08 pm (UTC)A way to contact you would be great... so if you drop back by a way to contact me is to email to littleani7@hotmail.com
Upfront warning: I'm not expressly Wiccan, I'm a Solitary (which means I'm not going to be able to teach you within an organized Tradition) and I'm not all that educated myself. If I were in a coven situation at this point I think I'd be working on my Second Degree-- but I wouldn't be judged to have gotten that far yet.
I'm also long-winded, abrasive, and up to my neck in crises (which does NOT mean I'm too busy to help, but I may be slow to respond.)
I also still tend to set my expectations of myself higher than my abilities... a dangerous flaw but one of good intent.
I believe you want to learn. I cannot promise to take the full responsibility of being a teacher but I can promise to hold out a hand as friend and guide.
Hope you drop in again.
Be blessed.
--Ani
From a Teen
Date: 2004-09-03 11:15 pm (UTC)The tragedy of those two girls' suicide has really woken a lot of us to the realities of adolescence today; there is so much hostility, isolation and pressure that the psychological and emotional need to fulfill oneself and one's innate curiosity can often lead to thoughtless and overbearing choices. I am a teen and I am Pagan. I did not choose this spirituality, but rather I acknowledge and embrace it as the essence of who I am. I know many other teens who also feel this way, and many whose own experience and wisdom surpasses the insistence of authority provoked by adulthood.
I am also actively involved in supporting the Youth and run a local group in my city that caters for uniting our strengths as teens and providing a friendly and open environment in which to foster the growth and awareness of Young Pagans. I think we need to open this concept up to a global scale; provide a place of warmth and peace that allows teens a safehaven to discuss issues relating to spirituality with others of open mind. Often groups created and facilitated by adults appear overwhelming and confronting, the gap in age often causes teens to reconsider and retreat. The Pagan community has yet to truly embrace the surge of interest in nature-based traditions in the Youth. There have been books published and sites created, but often these have been light-hearted attempts. We need to sieze this issue in political fervour, allow teens to grow within themselves, to discover the power that is innate and coursing through their very veins.
What are everyone elses' thoughts? Could we, as a group united by our reverence of the Old Gods and the Old Lore despite the differences in age, create a home that upholds the principles of friendship, learning, growth, honour and community?
Namaste, Gede...
Re: From a Teen
Date: 2004-09-08 07:33 am (UTC)"Often groups created and facilitated by adults appear overwhelming and confronting, the gap in age often causes teens to reconsider and retreat."
Yeah, OK, I can agree with this statement... I remember being afraid to tell ANYONE what I was thinking because as a Solitary facing some strange experiences I feared disbelief, judgement, and condemnation (or mockery... they're not that far apart).
I don't know what TO do about it... there's a certain amount of feeling judged inherent in teaching even for the best student... because even a good teacher is still a judge in a way, just not a harsh or cruel one.
Maybe there's a better way to put this... teaching often comes down to making a judgement call.
One could also say that it's about teaching a little judgement... a lot of the really scary things (suicides, for example, assuming a Western view that says we shouldn't just let it happen) in some ways boil down to a failure of judgement.
So yeah I'm not entirely sure of how to deal with this... even my lauded and wonderful friends make me feel as if I am being judged, and the teacher I love so much is just the one who's the least bad about it.
I think this is because he tends to wax philosophical rather than dogmatic... tells me about what he thinks (in terms of his perceptions) rather than about how this or that book or creed or other dogmatic codification says things should be. When I do get lectured about dogma (and I do-- it's religion we're talking about, after all, and dogma is part of the game no matter who you are) once again it's through a lens of perception rather than one of dictums about what is right and wrong (or correct and not).
Even when I was a fairly screwed-up teenager I resented being told right from wrong because I was pretty sure I could figure it out on my own... and I REALLY resented being told I was just plain wrong... talk about invalidating.
Hearing "advice" as "just someone else's point of view" I think is much easier than hearing it as "advice from elders--" or worse, "advice from betters."
Even though we're not teenagers I still think we can be useful... It just might serve us well to remember that we need to approach it from a listening and discussion point of view and be ready to learn from 'the kids' as much as the other way around.
We're here to be someone to listen and provide other perspectives... not to train, initiate, hand down dogma, or any of those things. What we're talking about doing is providing a road sign on the path, someone to walk with for a little while... metaphors abound, but you get the picture-- this is about perspective in light of the fact that, if we get this off the ground, we will seldom get to have a personal relationship with these people.
We need to function in the capacity of guides... one job of clergy, but only one. This isn't a coven and we're not priests/priestesses here... Some of us wouldn't be clergy (yet) even if it were.
"Often groups created and facilitated by adults appear overwhelming and confronting, the gap in age often causes teens to reconsider and retreat."
Yeah, OK, I can agree with this statement... I remember being afraid to tell ANYONE what I was thinking because as a Solitary facing some strange experiences I feared disbelief, judgement, and condemnation (or mockery... they're not that far apart).
I don't know what TO do about it... there's a certain amount of feeling judged inherent in teaching even for the best student... because even a good teacher is still a judge in a way, just not a harsh or cruel one.
Maybe there's a better way to put this... teaching often comes down to making a judgement call.
One could also say that it's about teaching a little judgement... a lot of the really scary things (suicides, for example, assuming a Western view that says we shouldn't just let it happen) in some ways boil down to a failure of judgement.
So yeah I'm not entirely sure of how to deal with this... even my lauded and wonderful friends make me feel as if I am being judged, and the teacher I love so much is just the one who's the least bad about it.
I think this is because he tends to wax philosophical rather than dogmatic... tells me about what he thinks (in terms of his perceptions) rather than about how this or that book or creed or other dogmatic codification says things should be. When I do get lectured about dogma (and I do-- it's religion we're talking about, after all, and dogma is part of the game no matter who you are) once again it's through a lens of perception rather than one of dictums about what is right and wrong (or correct and not).
Even when I was a fairly screwed-up teenager I resented being told right from wrong because I was pretty sure I could figure it out on my own... and I REALLY resented being told I was just plain wrong... talk about invalidating.
Hearing "advice" as "just someone else's point of view" I think is much easier than hearing it as "advice from elders--" or worse, "advice from betters."
Even though we're not teenagers I still think we can be useful... It just might serve us well to remember that we need to approach it from a listening and discussion point of view and be ready to learn from 'the kids' as much as the other way around.
We're here to be someone to listen and provide other perspectives... not to train, initiate, hand down dogma, or any of those things. What we're talking about doing is providing a road sign on the path, someone to walk with for a little while... metaphors abound, but you get the picture-- this is about perspective in light of the fact that, if we get this off the ground, we will seldom get to have a personal relationship with these people.
We need to function in the capacity of guides... one job of clergy, but only one. This isn't a coven and we're not priests/priestesses here... Some of us wouldn't be clergy (yet) even if it were. <Self-conscious grin.>
Nope, not a coven, not at all. More like the Pagan Crisis Line in all probability... because we're not talking about being the ideal. If you ask me we're talking about being SOMETHING to people who are finding themselves in a much less than ideal situation... if the ideal were always a reality, there'd be no need for what we're talking about.
Be blessed.
--Ani
littleani7@hotmail.com
Re: From a Teen
Date: 2004-09-08 07:36 am (UTC)"Often groups created and facilitated by adults appear overwhelming and confronting, the gap in age often causes teens to reconsider and retreat."
Yeah, OK, I can agree with this statement... I remember being afraid to tell ANYONE what I was thinking because as a Solitary facing some strange experiences I feared disbelief, judgement, and condemnation (or mockery... they're not that far apart).
I don't know what TO do about it... there's a certain amount of feeling judged inherent in teaching even for the best student... because even a good teacher is still a judge in a way, just not a harsh or cruel one.
Maybe there's a better way to put this... teaching often comes down to making a judgement call.
One could also say that it's about teaching a little judgement... a lot of the really scary things (suicides, for example, assuming a Western view that says we shouldn't just let it happen) in some ways boil down to a failure of judgement.
So yeah I'm not entirely sure of how to deal with this... even my lauded and wonderful friends make me feel as if I am being judged, and the teacher I love so much is just the one who's the least bad about it.
I think this is because he tends to wax philosophical rather than dogmatic... tells me about what he thinks (in terms of his perceptions) rather than about how this or that book or creed or other dogmatic codification says things should be. When I do get lectured about dogma (and I do-- it's religion we're talking about, after all, and dogma is part of the game no matter who you are) once again it's through a lens of perception rather than one of dictums about what is right and wrong (or correct and not).
Even when I was a fairly screwed-up teenager I resented being told right from wrong because I was pretty sure I could figure it out on my own... and I REALLY resented being told I was just plain wrong... talk about invalidating.
Hearing "advice" as "just someone else's point of view" I think is much easier than hearing it as "advice from elders--" or worse, "advice from betters."
Even though we're not teenagers I still think we can be useful... It just might serve us well to remember that we need to approach it from a listening and discussion point of view and be ready to learn from 'the kids' as much as the other way around.
We're here to be someone to listen and provide other perspectives... not to train, initiate, hand down dogma, or any of those things. What we're talking about doing is providing a road sign on the path, someone to walk with for a little while... metaphors abound, but you get the picture-- this is about perspective in light of the fact that, if we get this off the ground, we will seldom get to have a personal relationship with these people.
We need to function in the capacity of guides... one job of clergy, but only one. This isn't a coven and we're not priests/priestesses here... Some of us wouldn't be clergy (yet) even if it were. (Self-conscious grin.)
Nope, not a coven, not at all. More like the Pagan Crisis Line in all probability... because we're not talking about being the ideal. If you ask me we're talking about being SOMETHING to people who are finding themselves in a much less than ideal situation... if the ideal were always a reality, there'd be no need for what we're talking about.
Be blessed.
--Ani
littleani7@hotmail.com
A Teen's Point Of View
Date: 2004-09-03 11:56 pm (UTC)First of all i realize that the pagan community is somewhat more personal than allot of other religious views, but for a teen coming into the community and looking for answers, they may very well stumble onto any one number of books that are misleading (as we may all agree) or, even more easy, a web site, such as this one:
http://www.wickedwiccan.com
which advocates "doing unto others before they do unto you" as one of their bylaws...
in my opinion, its not nessisarily about the strength of the comunity, but more about steering teens in the right direction when they choose to be pagan, and away from this other stuff..
blessed be
-Val (age 17)
Morals, Dogma... and Thoughts
Date: 2004-09-08 07:50 am (UTC)Can't believe I'm only thinking about this now-- Has anyone given any thought to the idea that not all the people we might end up trying to provide with guidance are going to be 'kids?' I mean, I was in as much trouble in my dark times as any 'wayward teen' (probably more than most)... except I was 24 years old... and I'm sure there are others who begin to come to consciousness even later in life who struggle with it a lot more than I did.
Anybody thought about how we're going to deal with THAT?
Fair Warning: Next I'm going to say the C-word in a favorable light.
Christianity in many ways really DOES seem to do a pretty good job of reaching out to young people... and there are a lot of Christian teens who are happy with their faith for more than just the Rapture trip. I'm not talking about the "Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Savior" schtick (the Rapture trip, in other words)... I'm talking about fellowship and ministry, real spiritual support. Maybe we ought to stick the labels game on a shelf for awhile and take a look at what they're doing that's working... and what's not. Learn from their successes and mistakes.
I've been trying this approach with working on dealing with spiritual abuse... something else the Pagan community seems sadly mostly silent on... and having at least limited success.
Yeah I realize that as religions go we're as different as night and day... but it would take a Pagan to remind us that night and day are parts of the same whole, wouldn't it?
I'm interested in finding anyone willing to help me with this endeavor... I think it would be way to massive for me to handle alone.
Oh, and... Checked out wickedwiccan.com... Kinda scared the hell out of me. I remember someone else who talked about personal power in the same way... he was a creep. Make that plural.
Yeeeccchhh.
But that's not the point... it's not our place to tell people to avoid places like this, or to tell seekers that people like this are bad people. It seems to me that odds are they're creeps... unsavory if not necessarily abusive... but the point is that it's not our job to make that judgement call and would not be even if we had a way to be sure.
We're not a parental control... and I don't think the concept of "in loco parentis" should be extended to trying to tell anyone what path they can and cannot (or even should and should not) walk. I think part of the reason I chose wisely is that I was apprised of the possible consequences and given the choice.
It shouldn't be our job to prevent kids from listening to stuff like wickedwiccan.com... or worse. The only thing I think we can justifiably try to actively steer anyone away from is something that pretty clearly appears to be openly (or at least actively) abusive.
We need to make sure things like this are mitigated, not ignored or silenced...
... Once again, I stress that it seems what is needed of us is to try to be guides, not arbiters or handers-down of Traditions. 'Course as a Solitary I couldn't do that anyway so my opinion might be biased in favor of giving myself more work to do...
Be blessed.
--Ani
littleani7@hotmail.com
Re: Morals, Dogma... and Thoughts
Date: 2004-09-11 10:48 am (UTC)I have read with increasing interest the posts previous to this and agree wholeheartedly that some sort of outreach should be undertaken, and that teens alone should not be the sole focus. I also came into this way late in life, after years of being a very poor Southern Baptist.
You are completely correct in your assesment of christian groups success in reaching out and supporting the young years and spirit. I think that it due to their almost universal drive to "bring in the sheaves" (wonder where they got that phrase) that cross denominational lines. And from my viewpoint, therein lies the rub. I'm sure that we both know various pagan groups that consider themselves the one, true way and that all the rest of us are trudging through the darkness to find them. This sort of smug divisiveness is what kept me solitary so long.
Having said that (and please pardon my rant) I myself would really enjoy and support any effort to reach out other pagans searchers and I would be pleased and no doubt blessed to help in any way that I can.
I fear that it would turn out to be thee, me and he but what the hell challenge only spices life, eh?
Again, any way I could be of help will be cheerfully (well, maybe small grumbles) rendered, just let me know how.
Bleesed be to you and yours
Myyridon Glynwld
Pagan Orphans
Date: 2005-07-24 03:48 am (UTC)1) Dealing with the emotional: the isolation, the pain of family misunderstanding you, the pain of not being alowed to study, the blatant lack of religious freedom
2) Teaching at an age apropreate level, with age apropreate expectations for Teen
I run an elist, that sunflower moderates called "Pagan Orphans" (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PaganOrphans/ ) and it's been very sucessful in the past year. By sucessful I mean that there is a core group that realy does talk to each other and ask questions. For the longest time the list was very silent, and I added a few things. I used the calender to send out automatic messages on the holidays and full moons with a short "sound bite" on that event, then I added some auto messages with writing activities, like "take a walk in nature and tell us about what you see, how is it different than your last walk? Notice the chainge in the seasons" and things like "watch the full moon and write a poem and share it" things that any teen could do with out a pagan book, but still realy have an experience with it. I wrote a very special prayer for pagans orphans and added that to my auto mesages, and found some fun online pagan quizes to share as well. Little 15 minute tasks with very little commitment involved. I invited
Blessed Be the Pagan Orphans!
Dove